Hey, everybody! And welcome to the latest episode of The Agency Accelerator podcast. I am really excited to be joined today by David and Bachir from Prodigy. I'm Rob Da Costa, and this is The Agency Accelerator podcast as someone who has stood in your shoes, having started, grown and sold my own agency and just how it feels in the ups and downs of agency life. So this podcast aims to ease your journey just a little by sharing my and my guest's experiences and advice as you navigate your way to growing a profitable, sustainable and enjoyable business.

So we're gonna be talking about remote hiring and offshore resourcing and how that can be one of the ways of solving the sort of talent shortage that so many agencies struggle with. Before we jump into that, I just want to say, Hey, guys, welcome to the podcast just tell us a little bit about your background because no, prior to starting Prodigy, you run an e-Commerce Agency together for 14 years. So tell us a little bit about that, first of all, and then we'll talk about selling that, and then we'll move on to talk about resourcing.

Sure, Hey, Rob. Well, thank you. First, for inviting us. Yeah. So David and I worked together with God for the best part of the last 14 years we founded Best Response Media in August 2009. Best response media was a specialist e-commerce agency. Full service. So we did everything from designing and developing e-commerce infrastructure for big retailers and merchants, as well as providing various marketing services such as SEO, and PPC. And like, we've done that for 13 years. And then we were acquired last year by the Bridge Bison group.

And for the last two or three years, we've been now in parallel but now completely focused on Prodigy, which is a business focused on building globally distributed teams for agencies, software companies and anybody who needs step talents in effect. Fantastic. So let me just ask you about when you started Best Response. Did you plan at the beginning that one day you would exit and sell the business? What was your big game plan then? Or was it just about sort of surviving and seeing what happened?

Good question. We had I wouldn't say we had a plan. We definitely had a desire and objective as you mentioned. I think especially in our world, In the agency world, in the tech world, everyone has the dream of the exit. But you know, you can't really have such a strategic problem. You've just started. But yes, it was always in our mind, but we quickly learned that let's focus on actually building a great business and everything else is going to follow rather than chasing that because you do something great, build a good audience, and a good customer base.

People are gonna start knocking on your door trying to buy you, and that's what happened. And did the idea for Prodigy come along because of the way you resourced your agency? It came completely organically because as an agency, one of the biggest challenges at anybody in this business will know. It's just finding the right talent. And it's a constant It is something that you need day in, day out. As you grow in, you need more people as people potentially kind of leave or you know, move on.

Then you need to replace them. But mostly as you're growing. You need to keep growing your workforce and the pattern for that need is not linear. You could win a new customer, and suddenly you have a lot of work that needs to be done way beyond your capacity. And you just came up very quickly. So that need for flexing has always been a challenge and even way before covid. Many years ago, we started realising that we need to start to find a better way of doing this instead of that mad rush whenever we need it.

Like we need four or five developers. We need another two project managers. And having to kind of find those people. And we all know when you rush hires, don't turn up as well as you want them to be and up settling for what you can get as opposed to what you really want or need. So initially, reluctantly, we started thinking, “Okay, shall we look beyond our geographical area?” And where can we look without boring you with all the details? After a lot of trial and error and a few experiences that did not turn out so well, we did end up kind of working out how to do it and how to do it very well.

And that has become eventually become one of our strengths. One of our advantages over the competition is being able to find a really good time to level them up with every single higher in terms of capabilities in terms of know-how. And then at one point, we start realising, “Okay, we might have a business within a business here”. Our ability to kind of source really good talent. Do it well, do it quickly. This is something that everyone else wants. And that's how it came about. And we started offering first to our clients the ability to kind of do self augmentation and kind of hiring a full-time, or at least dedicated resources to work on that account in that account only.

And then, from then on, we thought, “Okay, well, we could then open this up to a bigger audience”. And, yeah, the rest is history. Yeah, it's interesting because one of the pieces of advice I always give my clients if they're thinking about selling their businesses is to have a succession plan, know what you're gonna do next and in your case. As you said for sure you had a business within a business. So you kind of already knew that. Actually, if we do exit better response and we're going to focus on this resourcing business before we jump into that, just tell me about actually what led you to sail on how that all came about.

And I'm also interested to ask you about how long you were tied into the urn out which often a lot of people are tied into 234 years. So tell me about that process. Yeah, sure. So you mentioned just now, it's always been on our radar that we would want to eventually. And we had approaches over the years as we became more established, and more recognised in the industry. We got more people knocking on our door often the first time it happened.

Obviously very exciting, like wow, someone approached us and they're interested in buying us. And then you quickly actually like us. You quickly realise that it's not as simple as that. They often go out. They'll approach lots of agencies, especially if they're paying for an M and A person to go out and find some potential acquisitions for them. So you also learned that it's a very resource-intensive process. Try to sell. There's no guarantee that it's going to work. So actually, we realised, after having a couple of conversations with interested parties, that we needed to be really sure that there's going to be a good synergy there and not kid ourselves, because if there isn't, it's going to be expensive from lawyers.

It's going to be expensive, not being able to focus on running the business. And, you know, other factors. So we were a little bit more reluctant when we were getting approaches. We do our own due diligence on them. We'd see we'd asked them more personal questions about what they were looking for and how serious they were and all the rest of it. And we were able to sort of fill throughout the inquiries as much as they were filtering out the companies to buy the end inquiry for us.

Brave bison, we learned pretty quickly that there was going to be an amazing fit there. They already had a distributed team. They already had a really strong commerce division. But they were missing magenta adobe commerce, which is what we specialise in, they'd already done up acquisitions before so big one. So they were used to acquiring and integrating companies into the larger group. And they had a big strategy for making further acquisitions and building a larger group in the future. So that already gave us a bit of comfort that we can see where we could fit in.

There's a hole in their offering that we can fill. They're used to running distributed teams. They've got people all over the world. They know how to manage them. They've got the processes, which is all great. And the people, they seem nice when we met with them. So we felt there was some good chemistry there, and we thought, “Okay, this is maybe this is worth exploring”. Great. And one interesting thing that you told me when we were sort of having a pre-prep discussion was that your earn-out period wasn't that long.

And part of the reason for that was because you were a very process-driven agency and therefore it's pretty easy to extricate yourself from that and not be how everything really depends on you. Indeed. And we worked on this for a long time. We were always aware that when the time comes and when you would like to exit, this is going to be a big thing because you want to de-risk this for the potential acquirer. Ultimately, what you're saying in the service industry, in our business, typically is what you're sending these close relationships with clients.

So if you end up purchasing a business and all of a sudden everyone starts cancelling their contracts and I'm not being happy with the transition and effectively, you're buying nothing. So we needed to make sure that we have a really strong management team, a really strong, process-driven business where even if David and I were not around, things will carry on running as normal, and we've worked on that for a number of years. It was also very apparent to the acquirer that this was the case. They got to interview seniors, the senior leadership team, and they could see that you know, the business was able to run that way.

But for us, it was a red line because we heard a lot of horror stories within our research as well. A lot of these, an hour period and not going as well as people hoped for. Especially if their last, like three years, somebody who's run a business and used to taking all the decisions suddenly to be dependent on somebody else for the turn out to be performance-based over which you might not have as much control as you might like to. All of these factors kind of make me in many cases have very bad experiences.

And also we had Prodigy, which we're very excited about it. And we thought you know what? If we're gonna cap ties with West Response Media and move on, we want to be able to focus on that. So we had that conversation that frank conversation really early on in the process, and we spoke about their potential concerns about how the whole transition is going to happen. And we explained that you know, you have customers, you have stuff, we have partnerships and we have a process. And these things are all very neat, very clearly defined.

And then, yeah, they did their due diligence, and they were happy to. So I advise anybody who's going through that process to work on their set-up before they start talking acquisition. Because ultimately, the more risk an acquirer will see in your business, the more they want you to stick around and pay you as little as possible upfront until they make sure that you know the risk is lower towards the end. From your point of view as a seller, you want to do the opposite.

You want to make sure that you know you're the risk from your point of view, as much of your money as upfront as possible and have the earners or that transition period as short as possible. Yeah, that's such good advice there, and something that the listeners should really take away from this, which is documentary processes because that makes you less valuable, which is ultimately what you want to be if you're going to sell. I've just got off a client call before this call, and we are working on a five-year exit plan.

And actually, one of the things they're really working on at the moment is getting everything out of their head and putting it onto paper. So really good piece of advice for everybody who's listening. So there's fast forward to now. You left there. You've already started. Prodigy. You kind of explain why you started it because that was a solution that you are solving for yourselves. But just tell us a little bit about business today and the kind of clients you're working for and the kind of problems that they have regarding resourcing.

We're really excited about it because it's solving a problem that we solved for ourselves and the problem that's continuing to hang around. You know, there's still a massive tech talent shortage in the UK, but all over the world, I know there's been some economic issues recently in downtown in certain industries, but our industry, the agency world, the SAS world, the fintech world is still booming and they still just cannot get enough good people fast enough. And the fact that we essentially have a playbook for this because we did it for ourselves and it's just so exciting that we're going out.

We're working with agencies with fintech with task companies and finding all sorts of people developers, and digital marketing project managers and every time, where are our resources are bringing us some great people like we would hire these. These are people that we would have hired when we run an agency. And, you know, being able to bring this kind of talent to the people that were working with the speed in which were able to find them compared to traditional methods is really pleasing. It's just working phenomenally well.

So can you share with us some of the objections that some people might have about hiring remote workers rather than people more local to them, whether they remote work, but get together once a week or whatever? But if I'm hiring someone in a different country, I certainly hear some objections around that. So do you want to share with us some of the things that you hear and the answers to overcoming those objections? Yeah, for sure. I mean, the obvious one is that there are concerns about quality, about communication, skills and about managing these resources.

And to that, you know, the same applies to apply to your office-based or head HQ-based staff. Ultimately, you want to hire well, you want to hire people that fit your criteria. Whether that's you know, skill sets whether that's their language, capabilities or communication capabilities verbal written, cultural fit, or personality. For all of these things, you would do that whether you're hiring somebody to be in your office or remote and distributed the management point of view where they say potentially, you know if somebody you can't see them, how you're gonna manage them well, the same applies.

I'm not going to sit down in your office watching everybody's screen. You're measuring output, and for that you have processes and you have various methods to ensure that your staff and your employees are doing the work that they're paid to do and the very engaged and they're satisfied and fulfilled in the workplace again. The same thing applied to distributed teams ultimately we find these objections to be less, and become a lot less from larger, more established, mature businesses is typically something that we hear from slightly smaller agencies.

And we've been there. So we completely understand where that comes from. So we try to help them understand that you know, you need to move from being sort of a micro-managed business where you look at every single person, what they're doing to a process-driven business where you have, you know, proper management structures for our for the majority of our clients is actually slightly more mature, and they have these processes in place, so the biggest thing for them is making sure that they get the best quality possible.

So you know, the skill set is, unfortunately, to level up, and the second thing obviously is costs and protecting their margins. So for a business that is more mature trying to build, whether it's to hire an overflow for an existing team, maybe three or four members or just one member to kind of with especially skill set or on the other end of building a complete team or a hub somewhere else globally. Whether it be, you know, it could be in Eastern Europe or further were filled. These types of companies, tend to have a better grasp on how to manage teams because they're already businesses, potentially that have hundreds of people, so they're not going to be in that mindset.

But for anybody who hasn't done this already and hired remotely, I guess you just need to have the same process that applies to both remote distributed or people in your office to be more process driven. I guess there are certain things that apply more to somebody working from home. So even distributed the two types of somebody who's working from home, home-based versus having a harbour, an office with another team that is based away from your headquarters and I guess the advice for somebody who's working from home.

When you assess them to join your team, you need to look for certain characteristics of somebody who's always made at home. They need to be able to self-motivate somebody who can stay on task, and there are ways and means that we can do that we can share that, in more detail with whoever's interested. But yeah, these are some of the objections, I guess that we come across and I think the point you made about stopping micromanaging and start focusing on outputs is a really good point.

And I think the pandemics forced a lot of this because suddenly we couldn't see people, but we did need to focus on the things that they were doing rather than what time of day they were doing them. So let me ask you a question. I think a lot of people buy into the idea of hiring technical roles like developers or SEO experts or something remote. Does it work for all kinds of roles? Like, Obviously, one thing I'd be thinking is that if I've got an account manager that needs to have good spoken English and good written English, could I find that person remotely?

Or do I really need to find someone in the UK for that? So do you think it works for all roles? Or is it just more for a technical role? Well, that's a good question. And sharing me, still, laugh about this. I'm naturally quite stubborn and initially, we focused on developers. We got that working really well. We're really happy and she would say to me, “Oh, let's try designers know we're in London, the best designers in London”, that's crazy. It's ridiculous. Even though we had Italian designers that are working for us in London eventually, we just through no choice, we were struggling to find good.

Good designers are affordable price. I can see that. It's okay. I have a look, but it won't work. I'm convinced it's not gonna work. And then behold, we ended up building a design team in Serbia that was world-class and cost-effective as well. And they stayed with us for a long time, which is amazing. So there was like “Okay, well, if designers can work and developers can work, how about digital marketers?” So we then built an SEC team across Croatia and Serbia again.

They were phenomenal, delivered amazing results for our clients and they were so good. They also built tonnes of links for our own best response website from massively high domain authority, domains using the reporter help reports throughout requests. Did some really good stuff there? And then it was about what? What other roles could we do? Well, we were nervous about client-facing stuff, and how the client was going to react. But then obviously Covid came along and everyone was remote and distributed anyway.

So we actually again are back against the war. We were struggling to find good, affordable project managers. And in our agency, we had our project manager, and account manager hybrid role because it's quite a technical offering. But then they also needed to be a bit commercially focused, and it worked well, having that combined anyway. Long story short, we had our PM team was spread across Ukraine, Bulgaria, Croatia, and Serbia and then all led. But we had a team-leading in London, but they were top-level, highly educated, very professional, and very experienced, and the clients love them.

So yeah, really, The vast majority of our agency was remote. By the end, there are probably four or five years in the UK and 40-plus scattered around the world, right? That's good to hear. And as you've been saying, you know, their talent shortages have been going on well, since I've been running this business since 2007 and aren't likely to go away. So we've got to start getting creative about solving that talent shortage. So if I'm an agency and I come to you with a brief of someone I'm looking for, how do you go about finding that person?

What's your process at Prodigy, right? Well, it depends. I mean, everyone comes to us to look for one person. Most people come to us to look for one person, but it looks like they look to us as an alternative to hiring as a whole so more of a comprehensive solution to their hiring process, or adding another method of acquiring talent. These building teams and last teams sometimes. But it could also be one person or a very highly specialised person. Our approach will difficult animal what it is you're after, but we always start with a discovery phase.

We need to understand your business, how you do things and what is distributed for you. I mean, you asked the question earlier that can every role be remote and will not probably show signs can be remote. You know, there are many rules that you know, maybe habits for the digital world. For the tech. Well, a lot of the roles can be. The majority of roles can be remote, but where can they be? So, for example, are there any considerations that need to be taken into account in data protection?

For example, anybody who's working on your customer data do they need to be having access to that live data, in which case we need to keep within the GDP are kind of reasons such as the EU or not, and time zones? Where do your clients live? Would it be helpful to have everybody close like one plus minus two hours from London in the UK, or do you have clients across the problem potentially where it would make sense to have people, maybe in Latin America? So we would spend some time understanding the business and then coming up with solutions.

Also, there is the question, “Do you want to hire full-time or do you want freelancers? Is it the length of a project or is it an ongoing engagement?” So we try to understand all of these factors and come up with really good solutions that would shoot your business. You didn't answer the question. What was the question again? Was it like, how do we approach this, right? Yeah. The process for actually going and finding them. But that's you've answered that question. Just let's just talk a little bit about some of the concerns that people might have.

If I've hired a remote worker, how do I manage them? And how do I keep them engaged? Let's assume because I think a large percentage of this audience is running sort of small to mid-sized agencies, so they may not be coming to you for a team, but they might be hiring one or two people, and they probably are home workers. How do I manage them? And how do I keep them motivated? Well, you manage them in the same way as that. You'll manage your existing team.

So say, for example, you're hiring a developer and they're joining an existing development team. Well, you're gonna have an onboarding process to introduce them to the projects. They're gonna be working on how you deliver the projects, how you run your sprints, what's the cadence of your ceremonies and all these other meetings and everything that you do there. So they're already then they're going to be integrated from that side. So they're gonna be attending the stand-ups on a daily basis. They're gonna be doing the retrospectives every couple of weeks or a week, depending on how you were in your sprints.

So from that and they're also obviously they're going to have the assigned. We're gonna be doing their estimates. So talking about the output side, you're going to see the work that they're doing if you know, they've got 100 and 70 hours in a month and, you know, take off at the time. But say for a sprint, they've estimated 60 hours worth of work. And if they're not delivering that, I'm not coming close. Then you can quickly see you got a problem. Ideally, they're gonna have a later team leader manager, someone who's already running one too once on a weekly basis, or at least bi-weekly with the rest of the team.

And they're gonna slot into that cadence of meetings as well generally and onboarding, you know, about a few more catch-ups and early on meetings to make sure that they're scheduled and up to speed with everything. But generally speaking, there are sorts of things that you should already be doing with your existing team, wherever they are, is what you want to be replicated with them and then, in terms of motive, keeping them motivated, making sure that they're learning, making sure they're developing, making sure that they're actually delivering what you expect.

And if you see them, maybe they're falling. Sure, perhaps there are areas of their skill set that they need to have a bit of support or training on delivering them, delivering that to them and also making sure that they're incorporated into the fun side of the agency. Do you know what water cooler chats have got? What things do you talk about? What games? Quizzes, other kinds of stuff you do just to make them join on the jokes and the funding, the agency. The amazing thing that we were finding with just the globalisation of everything.

We were all watching the same TV programmes. We were all watching the same films. We were all following the same big events, especially yeah, exactly. When you've got things like football tournaments and you've got people from all these different countries. It creates love, fun friendly competition and other reasons for people to engage together. Yeah, so I mean, the big message. They're sort of the obvious. One really was to treat remote workers in exactly the same way you would treat them. An in-house person, I guess, being a little bit more conscious about some of that more sociable stuff you obviously have to.

You can't see someone across the office. You have to make more of an effort, but I think it's good advice. Let's just talk a little bit about hiring freelancers because I've always been a big believer, although I'm totally open to being disagreed with on this point. But I've always been a big believer and indeed advise my clients, and I've seen it not work that it's very difficult to build an agency just solely on freelancers because freelancers often have their own agenda. 

So if I am hiring remote freelancers. How do I manage them? And how do I keep them aligned with my agency as well? And not acting as a freelancer? Well, that's a very good question. And even in the world of freelancers, there are two types of freelancers and say, two ways to engage with freelancers. There is the project-based, you know, defined timeline freelancer. And if it's a short amount of time, say, six months and you know that you're going to part ways after that project, then obviously you still recommend that you engage with that employee and be close to them.

Just like to be with any team member like you would do with anybody else. But I think where the real value is when you have somebody with no defined end date for the projects. So somebody who's going to carry on working with you, or at least maybe work regularly with you, in which case what we were saying earlier is about developing that sort of, you know, aligning the objectives of that. But instead of just having a task-driven relationship where you say to them. “Okay, you know what? Today you're going to choose a metaphor. You're gonna paint this wall, and you're gonna, you know, ladies' bricks”. But if you show somebody the end results that you're trying to do, which is like building this beautiful building, they're going to be much more engaged. They're gonna be aligned with your objectives and the same thing with any type of project. Be a designer and developer project manager. They need to buy into the overall objectives of your organisation or the team they're working with.

You get way better output from them. They'll be happier and more engaged with the work. So that's why I recommend, I suppose a lot of people where they have a bad relationship with feel artists because they treat them just like some sort of a production facility where they'll send the work and they expect the outskirts. But we are all human beings, and it takes more to get more from a human being. And investing in that stuff definitely pays dividends. What you were saying earlier as well.

You were asking David how to get better out of employees in general, I think investing time in developing your organization's brand is. What do you stand for? What sort of culture do you want to have? A lot of people confuse culture with having a pool table and, having a few beers once a week. But actually having a good culture where people are heard and their opinions and their voices are taken into account when formulating strategies. And we've done a lot of that and tried various approaches, and without fail, the more you engage, the more you hear people, and the more you try to apply their contributions to your overall process, not necessarily just to their role.

They are almost like they buy into whatever you're doing. They become stakeholders in your success, as opposed to somebody who's there to kind of get a task from. Yeah, really good advice. And I think just paying attention to all of that stuff and being mindful about it is going to make such a big difference. Would you advise if you were working with a client and they were working with a freelancer on this ongoing basis, Is there a point that you can see where you need to switch from that freelance relationship to actually making them a full-time employee or replacing them with a full-time employee?

Yes. And that's not just dictated by, that's the face by a number of factors. In some cases, it could. There could be tax benefits. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but in a certain geography, they're cracking. The tax kind of regimes are changing constantly and whereas before it used to be more advanced pages to kind of, let somebody handle tax affairs. More governments are not of the fact that these people are paying less tax than the overall population, so they tax them more.

So there are more benefits to hiring them directly. Now, if you don't have the scale of hiring too many people and having an entity in that country, that's fine. There are solutions for that as well. So there is the employment of record solutions where you hire via a third-party company. So you give them, for instance, and purposes the same experience as a person who's a full-time employee here in the UK. Benefits sometimes can cost less to an employer, but give much more value to employee B. It's insurance.

Or it could be, you know, various other things on the list is very long of what you could do to create the perception of bigger value for your team. But it really depends. There is no hard and fastball. It depends on your organisation and your set of scale, the size of the hubs, and the taxation regime in the places they are hired. So there are a few things to take into account, and hopefully, that's why we exist. So we can help companies navigate these things and have the best experience have the best employees and get a good experience to send employees.

Yeah, I guess you're highlighting the complexities and different legal setups of different countries, which is obviously where you guys can help out. So a fascinating conversation. I didn't get a chance to ask you about how you make your partnership work, which is perhaps a topic for another podcast. Another day we fight when the camera, let me ask you the question that I ask everybody and because you guys worked together a long time to be interesting, to see if you've got different answers to this. But let me ask David first. If you go back in time and give your younger self a piece of advice just starting out, what would it be? That's a really good question. I think it's trying to edit that down to one thing because a long list of do all of these things and you're going to get there quicker. I think I'd probably say planning a little bit sooner. When you start a new business, you can get carried away with planning and setting yourself targets and goals and everything. But it's all arbitrary because you've got nothing to base it on.

You don't actually know what's going to work. You don't know what piece of activities could have worked so very much in the early days. It's literally about going out there and just generating enough money so you can stay in business so can pay your bills. You can pay his staff and you keep figuring out what that business is going to be. But there's gonna be a point where you've done. That might be a year, two years where you've actually got a bit of a track record.

You've got a bit of an understanding of what works, and what doesn't work and get to make a plan. Where do you want to get through the next few years, how are you going to get there and what you can scale based on some real data we got there? Eventually, we started planning eventually, and it was really helpful for us. But I think we've done it a bit sooner. It might have been great and obviously replying that now, with Prodigy. But yeah, planning a little bit sooner would probably be the advice.

Good advice. And be sure. Let me ask you the same question. If you go back in time and give your younger self some advice, what would that be? Yeah, as David said, there are so many things. But I've been thinking about this since you send that email, actually, and the one if I were to choose just one, it's not too dissimilar to what David said in the sense that instead of trying to from our experience, at least when we started the agency we've done a lot of services.

We created a lot of different solutions for our clients, and we discovered that we were good at something. And then we added something else. My advice is to find something to be a specialist in one thing, and you know as much as you can, even if it's a niche, very small. But if you're really good at it, I think that's where your real opportunity lies for you to be distinctive and to stand out from the rest. I guess that's the one thing that if I was too kind, send a little message to myself maybe 15 years ago.

That's what I'd say. Don't try to be everything for everyone. You know, Just stick with one thing that you know we have. We have a lot of acknowledging and building on that. Get advice is the advice I give people every single day. So both pieces of advice. Actually, I think when we started our business, we were just trying to survive, aren't we? So we're never thinking about a longer-term plan. But there's a certain point where we've proved we can survive and we need to have a plan.

And I also think that people often think the solution to growth is to have more things. Actually, the solution to growth is to be seen as a specialist and get your pricing set accordingly. So good bits of advice. Thank you for that. Now, if people want to find out more about you guys and Prodigy, where would they go? They can go on our website. They can contact us directly. Our door is always open for a chat and advice and hopefully exploring ways we can add value to people who we could.

We could help our websites of the prodigy dot team and its PRODIGY dot team. And you can obviously connect with this Arlington as well, always happy to chat with people if anyone just wants to have a chat about anything to do with running agencies and our experiences and distributed teams. Yeah, we always enjoy having these conversations. Great. Well, I will make sure we include all of those links in the show notes attached to this episode. I just want to say to both of you, Thank you so much.

This is actually the first episode I've done with two people at once. So I think we did pretty well and not talking over each other to really appreciate your time. Thank you for inviting us. Yeah, I know the listeners will have got some really good nuggets out of that. And so we always know that's been a good episode when that happens. So again, thanks so much. Thanks for a great buy.